a face, we can put him on the 6:00 news, and understand him very well. but in the case of, for instance, franklin temple ton and investments, they own $35 million of stockton paper, and in the recent proposal from the city they're offering less than a penny on the dollar. well, franklin temple doesn't have a face. >> it's symmetry. you expect them to have well informed people investing their money. i mean, you might have ill informed people. you might have ordinary people putting their money there, but the person's investing the money is getting paid a lot of money to know that stockton is a high risk place and they made a mistake. there is symmetry there. but another thing these people worked for their money. why am i making that special? well, they sell off property. they make concessions. detroit has a sports team.